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I’ve been tracking the comments on all of this across various websites to see what people’s thoughts are. This genuinely might be the most contentious issue of our age. There are people who are vehemently pro Palestine and can dismiss the loss of civilian lives as’ what do you expect when people are pushed like this’ . Then others are hugely pro Israel and see this as an unprovoked attack by a terrorist group and any retaliation is justified.
I think everyone’s shitty here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They use terrorist practices and target civilians. That’s a terrorist organization. There’s no discussion on that point. Israel is a right wing authoritarian state that regularly commits war crimes. The total Palestinian body count far exceeds the death toll from this attack by orders of magnitude so we can’t pretend like Israel was minding its own business and was attacked.
I don’t think you can point to one or the other as being the true hero or the true victim. It’s the greatest grey area of all time.
I absolutely condemn the Palestinians and Hamas for this act. I absolutely condemn the Israelis for their continued mistreatment and violence towards Palestinians. One will say they only act this way because of the behavior of the other. But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start and end.
The only thing that is certain is that there will be far more blood shed and every dead Israeli will be met with 10 dead Palestinians. I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict. And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it. With the US protecting Israel no other Arab countries will dare intervene militarily. If the Israelis occupy Gaza it’s going to quickly become a quagmire with a never ending insurgency. It will be costly and in ten years Israel will be more unsafe then they were today.
There’s no good answers or good parties here. Just disgusting human nature and the consequences of half baked racist geopolitics from the 40s.
But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start
The Brits
“In the beginning, some old British guy drew some lines on a map. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - The first line to the history of many regional conflicts across the globe
Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration basically created the political climate of the Middle East.
Basically, the British and French decided that the Arabs were too stupid to figure out borders and squiggly lines that followed lame things like “shared cultural heritage” and “similar religious beliefs” were far too complicated.
I did some digging today because I was curious on what led to the Balfour Declaration, and what led to that, and so forth. The only thing I have to add here is there were geopolitics involving a separatist Ottoman sultan, and it seems the British wanted to create a sphere of influence for themselves in the area through a Jewish population (Catholic Church gave France influence, Orthodox Church gave Russia influence). Zionists were happy to work with them.
That begs the question then, how did the Zionist goal of a Jewish homeland start? The furthest I could trace it back to was Russian pogroms of Jewish migrants. The pogroms led a Jewish intellectual to contend that the only way for Jews to live freely and respected was an independent Jewish state. There was a zeitgeist of a enlightenment for Judaism at the time as well which asked questions about culture and religion and identity.
I have yet to go back further from there. It seems like oppression and discrimination against Jews during the middle ages could be a significant factor… and that would probably draw us back to the Romans in Jerusalem.
At this point, shit’s just fucked. The idea of a Jewish state, the creation of one, and what led to the originating idea span centuries and several nations. And having a Jewish state is central to this whole issue. I don’t think history has an answer for us here.
Which was influenced largely by the antisemitism of the West and the rise of Zionism for Jewish people which is partly radicalization as a response to thousands of years of oppression. But Brits were still in power with colonialism in full force.
This is why I mainly blame the US and Europe at this point.
Both sides in this situation are controlled by the most disgusting kind of sociopath and the only way to stop this is real (with teeth, not just bullshit talk) international pressure on both sides.
Instead there is real pressure on one side only, by declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation (which they are), whilst without pressure on the other side, the boot of Israel on Palestinian necks creates every day new people with nothing to lose, for whom joining an internationally labelled terrorist organisation is an actual step-up from their situation.
So the worst kind of Israelis have nothing to lose from joining the military or colonates and stealing from and murdering Palestinians because there are zero international sanctions on it, the Israeli authorities fully support it and they have overwhelming force, whilst the worst kind of Palestinians have nothing to lose from joining Hamas and murdering Israelis because they have nothing to lose since the actions of the above mentioned Israelis have made their baseline situation be “a life of misery treated as less than human” and even made any organisation that resists Israel (even one as bad as Hamas) be relativelly prestigious and an actual step-up for many in that environment.
Unless the “solution” envisioned by US and European leaders is genocide of the Palestinians, then both sides have to be put in a situation were they do have something to lose by doing what they’ve been doing and that means keeping on the pressure on Hamas and extending the sanctions to the Israeli government.
Why are you blaming just US and Europe? Why do Russia and China get a free pass? Russia gives support to Iran and Iran directly supports Hamas. China deliberately plays both sides while doing nothing to fix the situation. Nobody is actually trying to fix the whole situation but somehow only US and Europe are to blame. I’m not against being critical of the EU and US (there are things to be critical about), but let’s not act like they’re supposed to be the world police. We have other countries who could also work towards a solution, ideally in cooperation with US and EU, but they seem to be more interested in blaming “The west” than actually solving the issue.
It’s because most people on Lemmy are from those US, EU, or “commonwealth” countries, so that’s about all we have influence over. Also Russia and China’s democracies are not looking so hot these days… what kind of pressure is a citizen of one of those countries expected to have anyway.
In my country I can go to a government building and take a huge dump on a picture of our elected leader, and I may get thrown in jail, but I’ll probably be released after a slap on the wrist.
Sure, but if the goal is to actually influence something then the wording shouldn’t be “I blame mainly US and EU.”
You raise a good point, but I guess I do mainly blame my leaders, personally.
It goes back even further than that when you look into why Zionists wanted a Jewish state in the first place. I did a deep dive today trying to figure out the origin of the conflict and the original victims and aggressors, and I ended up in Revolutionary Russia before calling a quits for the day.
I don’t know what an ideal solution is at this point, nor what an actually viable solution would be. I wonder if it would even be better for the issue to not end instead of continuing on the path it’s on. The way things are going, the only place we’ll end up is with one of the sides completely wiped out. :/
I suspect this will be the turning point of tbe conflict. I don’t know that we are going to walk Israel back from the full on attack.
The reality is as long as there are Palestinians alive there will be a terrorist network operating in their ranks. Israel could offer an olive branch and stop their oppression of the people but that hatred runs deep and it won’t be long before there’s another attack and we are back to where we started.
There’s no good solution at all. There’s only the question of when does a military action in response to a terrorist act swap from righteous retribution to a genocide. Because short of genocide the Israelis can do nothing but occupy the territory and deal with an insurgency which will only breed more terrorists as all the fatherless sons grow up hating Israel and want to enact their revenge.
At this point a forced migration might be the option with the least bloodshed, as repulsive as it is. Then you run into the problem though that Palestinians are still shunned by the Arab world because being them being Muslim isn’t enough to override antisemitism from their nationality.
Ironically I think we might need another mandated “this region is now the home of Palestinians” like with Israel if they’re going to have a peaceful place to live.
For the record I don’t like any of these solutions. But like you said we’re quickly approaching the point where Israel may permanently end the conflict through the genocide of the Palestinians, and that’s the absolutely least desirable outcome.
I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict.
Agreed.
And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it.
Yea, I don’t think the two-state compromise is even possible even more. Israel won’t tolerate even letting Hamas stick around, so Gaza will be leveled. As for what will happen to the civilians; I’ve not a clue.
Yep, ESH
Which is why the Palestinians need to recognise the writing on the wall decades ago and pushed to settle somewhere else where it isn’t a lost cause. They can’t just keep turning their people into combatants and not expect to be suppressed for it.
Israel isn’t going anywhere, it will take more than the Middle East to force them and even then, they already have nukes.
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many can’t afford to move. It’s not like the Palestinian government can just purchase land and build new cities elsewhere as it’s poor too. If the Palestinians were to all move to any other country, they’d largely be refugees, reliant on their host country for food and shelter, which is a huge financial drain. Who is going to take and care for all of them?
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. It’ll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
Do you think a Palestinian passport makes countries welcome you with open arms?
Israel isn’t going anywhere
Great, they should help out their Palestinian citizens who are obviously suffering.
You know why their passport is weak? Because everywhere they went and got absorbed into the general population, they fermented revolution against the country they were in.
They did it to themselves.
It’s clear that Palestinians are not interested in peace with Israel, so why ask for help?
This is racist and xenophobic. Undeniably so.
Explain how these facts are racist and xenophobic.
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So, a minister of a Jewish state compares another nation to animals and decides that genocide is the proper solution Ironic.gif
The Israeli government has been waiting for an excuse to do this for years. Finally, they’ll get the land and homes of all the people who were there before them and the Western world will largely support them. It’s disgusting.
Everytime there is a war with Israel this is said. But yet it never happens… Israel control the area for a short time and gives it back when things calm down
It sounds bad, but it makes sense when you look at things through a historical context.
Well. . . it sounds bad because it is bad.
So they will kill all people in Gaza?
I always thought that is what Israel wanted anyway.
So, it’s an unattended concentration camp, and they hope everyone dies there.
Well, killing some and hope the rest will try to flee to Egypt at which point Gaza is free for the taking.
Or well, maybe, they hope that in desperation people will try to rush the blockade, at which point they just kill them. Hamas awful actions have given Israel plenty of ammunition to keep everyone else on the world stage away for a while, no matter what they do now.
This conflict has been bringing out the absolute worst in people. Lemmy is acting more civil than reddit, but fuck… it’s not great. I see why this subject is avoided.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that Hamas is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
“Look what you’re making us do.”
Ah, I forgot, Hamas simply had to rape a bunch of women and butcher 200 people at a festival. That’s just what righteous resistance looks like.
Or perhaps childish quips aren’t actually useful in a productive conversation, who knows
My point was that Israel cannot offload to Hamas all responsibility for the suffering to civilians caused by blockading Gaza. It’s Israel’s choice to react like this. I understand Israel’s reasons for taking this extreme action, but Israel should take responsibility for it, not pretend it was forced into this and it has to keep starving civilians until Hamas capitulates. And of course I’m not condoning the atrocities committed by Hamas.
People here don’t seem to understand this. All they think is “Israel bad”. Also, instead of cheering for Hamas when they drag dead civilians through town, they could, you know, not do that.
Also, instead of cheering for Hamas when they drag dead civilians through town, they could, you know, not do that.
Who is doing that?
Bro half this thread has a hard on for Hamas, his terrorist organization and for antisemitism, if you can’t see it I wonder why
if you can’t see it I wonder why
What do you mean?
surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing,
And allow the genocide of Palestine to continue without opposition? Why should they simply lay down and die? Because fighting back is distasteful?
I must have missed the lesson in school about how the way to resist oppression is to rape and murder hundreds of innocent civilians at a festival.
It’s not as if there were a lack of military targets around. If Hamas had strictly focused on attacking military bases and infrastructure, I might be able to be sympathetic. At the least, that would fall under the umbrella of meaningful resistance. Instead, their sole aim was to murder as many Jews as possible. Kidnapping civilians and threatening to murder them on a livestream is absolutely indefensible.
The only explanation I have found, for Hamas attacking those civilians, is, that they are cowards. They are scared. If they attack military personnel, the soldiers actually fight back… raping and killing civilians is just so much more convenient for Hamas.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that Israel is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, giving right of return, de-militarizing, opening all borders, creating a single government that fairly represents all in the area, giving reparations, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that the Zionist entity is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians.
You know as well as I do that a de-militarized Israel would very rapidly no longer exist.
If you recall, Gaza was occupied until 2005, when the IDF withdrew as a sign of goodwill towards peace. Gazans then elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israeli cities.
If you’re supporting a side that’s threatening to livestream the murder of hostages, you need to take a very long look in the mirror.
You know as well as I do that a de-militarized Israel would very rapidly no longer exist.
Yes
Mask off, so my job is done here.
I’ve never been trying to hide behind a mask, just like the Zionist entity has never tried to hide that it primarily targets civilians.
If you’re supporting the side indiscriminately starving millions, you need to take a very long look in the mirror. This fight is villains vs villains, and civilians are taking the brunt of the brutality from both sides.
All those who condemned Hamas for attacking civilians, I wonder if they will have the same energy when Israel starves civilians?
FAFO. I’m not sure what else was going to happen.
Israel has been fucking around for decades. Yet i bet you dont use that cop out for the attack on the weekend.
How were people peacefully attending a festival fucking around? Hmm?
Partying in an apartheid state?
Like shit, maybe it’s not a good idea to have a rave with the bastards commiting genocide and crimes against humanity on stolen land?
Strange fucking genocide. And as to whether the land was stolen, I’m sorry, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. There was a partition plan, the Arabs wouldn’t accept it, fought a bunch of wars, and got their shit kicked in. FAFO.
There’s been a lot of heated commentary on this subject, and some genuinely good analysis https://digressionsimpressions.substack.com/p/israels-strategic-cul-de-sac
I thought this was helpful and insightful, so sharing it here
People want revolutionaries under constant oppression and inequality to fight a “fair, modern war” against one of the most well-funded militaries in the region.
Are people stupid? Palestine, unlike Ukraine, doesn’t have the privilege of fighting an equal war.
Well, FAFO
It’s now the FO stage
I’m not sure if this is better or worse than what I was expecting,
I was worried about the Israelis just storming right back in there and going full Srebenica over this.
Are you suggesting that Israel should be bound by international law to not impose collective punishment, while the state of Palestine is killing and kidnapping civilians and clearly not hindered by it? Palestine is a hostile nation that just launched a bloody attack on civilians. Aren’t the effects of a war typically felt by all members of a state participating in it?
Yes of course.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
Seriously, partisan operations tend to be war crimes. That doesn’t mean that shooting the entire village is now acceptable. You get hanged for that.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
This terrorist organization, Hamas, runs the government in Gaza. They were elected in democratic elections in 2006 and no elections have been held since. This is an attack from a terrorist state, not an example of clandestine civilians acting on their own.
The Hamas is called a terrorist organization by Israel, most NATO countries and many others. It is the official language of the Western nations and neither Gaza nor Palestine ist recognized as a “state” by Israel or again most of NATO.
Adding more hypocricsy to the hypocricsy doesn’t make it better as a justification.
Although that is true, the state of Palestine has significant international recognition.
Terrorism is most obviously defined by attacks on civilians for political ends. Hamas, who is in charge of Gaza, just orchestrated the murder of 1000+ civilians. I’m at a loss as to how one can try to portray this as not a terrorist state. An EDM concert full of civilian youths is not a valid military target, this wasn’t collateral damage, it was an intentional attack on civilians.
Is it any wonder NATO and Israel doesn’t want to normalize relations with them?
Israel as the occupying power had already been breaking international law so a bit more won’t make much difference.
No.I do believe Israel should respect international law. This doesn’t mean I approve of what Hamas did.
Gaza is still accessible via Egypt, supply lines can still remain open. It seems absurd to suggest Israel should be forced to aid and supply a hostile state that is currently killing their civilians. A blockade seems appropriate to me given the circumstances.
Theoretically if Mexico invaded the US we should still keep supplying them with energy, food and water while they attack us because otherwise it’s collective punishment?
The Rafah border crossing is currently closed due to an Israeli air strike. Might reopen tomorrow. Might be bombed again.
Egypt is as hostile to Gaza or worse, but they get a free pass not being Jewish.
I’m sure this will in no way backfire.
It’ll escalate the conflict…
Which is what Israels government wants…
So yeah, it’s not going to backfire, it’s going to do exactly what they want.
Same way using the IDF to make sure Palestinians couldn’t fight back against “settlers” just escalated the conflict. If Israel wanted peace, that backfired. But they don’t want peace. They want a war so they can use it as an excuse to expand their borders again.
I want to disagree so badly…but I can’t.
Hopefully the blockade can be lifted soon. Since it appears Israel is at war against the government of Gaza (Hamas), there’s a difficult line to walk where a complete and lasting victory is achieved while avoiding humanitarian disaster. A quick victory will hopefully avoid the most extremes of humanitarian disaster. In the long term I hope nearby Arab states help provide a peaceful solution to the problem.
While i undestand the strategic motivation and can see why fuels and electricity are considered necessary to weaken the military capeabilities of Hamas cutting the supply of drinking water and food is not excuseable.
Especially without access to water it only takes a few days until people are dying from dehydration and it is impossible to treat wounded. Also the substitution of clean drinking water with water from tainted sources can quickly lead to an epidemic of cholera and other deadly diseases that would be devastating and impossible to contain given the current situation.
Is there a reasonably safe way to provide water during the type of military operation that’s coming? Pipes have historically been used to smuggle weapons into Gaza, even the water pipes, so Israel is likely trying to contain that source of weapons during the upcoming operation.
i strongly doubt weapons to be smuggled through drinking water pipes. that would require to close the pipe segment on both ends and pump out all the water manually and the water supplier on Israels side would notice that no more water is flowing.
Also that requires pipes to be at least somewhere in the 1400+ range, which you only find directly at the water source or long transmission lines that are typically operated in free flow because pumping would be too expensive.
Finally your argument doesnt make sense. First of all who would be smuggling weapons from Israeli water plants into Gaza. Second of all again, an empty pipe that is large enough could be used for smuggling. A pipe that is filled with water cannot.
Israel has announced a “total” blockade of the already besieged Gaza Strip, including a ban on food and water, after Hamas carried out the biggest attack on the country in decades.
Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said on Monday authorities would cut electricity and block the entry of food and fuel as part of “a complete siege” on Hamas-run Gaza, where about 2.3 million people live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world.
der crossing points; the third is controlled by Egypt.
“We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Gallant said in a video statement.
Israel’s chief military spokesperson, Daniel Hagari, told reporters on Monday that Israel has “control” of its communities following Saturday’s mass incursion of Hamas fighters into its territory.
Hagari said there had been some isolated incidents on Monday morning, but that “at this stage, there is no fighting in the communities”.
He added that “there might still be terrorists in the region”.
Israeli tanks and drones were guarding openings in the fence to prevent more infiltrations, Hagari said, adding that 15 of 24 border communities had been evacuated, with the rest expected to be evacuated over the next 24 hours.
Earlier, Hamas spokesperson Abdel-Latif al-Qanoua told The Associated Press news agency that the group’s fighters continued to battle outside Gaza and had captured more Israelis as recently as Monday morning.
He said the group aims to free all Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, which in the past has agreed to lopsided exchange deals in which it released large numbers of prisoners for individual captives or even the remains of soldiers.
SOURCE: AL JAZEERA AND NEWS AGENCIES
Welp, whatever goodwill and sympathy I had for Israel just went poof. Less than 24 hours too, gotta be a record for them.
Funny, I feel the same way about Palestine. Their army of terrorists was raping young women next to their dead civilian friends at a concert promoting peace and love, while slaughtering unarmed edm kids trying to escape in the hundreds:
Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies.”
Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza. In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.
One survivor who’d returned to the scene later in the day to look for his friends spoke, in a breaking voice, of what he’d seen. Of the bodies, mainly of young women, lying cold and mutilated. Of scantily clad corpses, many of whom appeared to have been shot at point-blank. Of cars, perforated by bullets or blown up by grenades.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-accountClosing the borders and shutting off supplies provided by the nation they attacked is enough to make you lose sympathy for victims of such acts? Your sense of moral equivalence seems broken.
Maybe don’t have your “festival for peace and love” in an apartheid state about 5km from one of the most contested borders in the world? Not saying what Hamas did was right but goddamn was that some ignorant yuppie shit to have a music festival right there
If they didn’t want to be violently raped and murdered why did they dress and behave so provocatively by holding a peaceful dance party nearby? Yeah clearly it was their fault. 🙄
You mean the very popular concert site that the Gazans also make frequent use of for their own festivals?
Nevermind that, how about shut right the fuck up if you’re going to try and victim blame raped civilians for being in too close proximity to the monsters that decided they were gonna go do some raping today.
It’s one of the most heinous active choices a person can make, and the people who’d actively try to defend someone making such a vile and inhuman choice are second only to such in moral bankruptcy.
You know what I’ll give people under 21 who were born in Israel a pass. Literally everyone else chose to be in that fucked up country in that fucked up part of the world at that time. If you are a grown ass adult actively choosing to be part of the problem, by living in/traveling to/paying taxes in this horrible apartheid state, you deserve what happened to you.
The terrorists who carried out this event are even more despicable. There is never any reason to commit these kind of atrocities be it religion or whatever else.
@DarkGamer @tryptaminev @HidingCat Sympathy for the victims yes, however collective punishment is a war crime
So yeah, that’s still a thing that sickens good people against Israel’s actions
